Browsing articles in "Podcasting/Radio"

Are Cumulus Media’s NASH Plans Serious, or Just Sizzle?

June 10, 2014 - By Trigger  //  Podcasting/Radio  //  11 Comments

nashYou see the brown ‘N’ to the right there? If Cumulus Media and its CEO Lew Dickey have their way, in the coming years it will be one of the most recognized brands in North America, especially if you’re a country music fan. The plans that Lew Dickey has for that big brown ‘N’ are ambitious to say the least, and look to permeate just about every segment of the consumer culture of the United States.

Though the flagship for the NASH brand is the Cumulus stable of 70 country radio stations, with access to another 390 Cumulus-owned stations across the country and 1,500 more through the Westwood One radio network, Cumulus and Lew Dickey have made it known that they want to have the NASH brand travel much farther than radio. Cumulus has already secured a deal with long-running periodical Country Weekly to rebrand to NASH Magazine. They have also announced their plans for NASH-branded restaurants and food to solidify the big ‘N’ outside of music. They also reportedly want to make NASH-branded consumer products such as clothing, furniture, and even designer paint. NASH trim packages for trucks could be on the way, and all this goes together with NASH branded tours and musical events, TV specials and online streaming events.

And recently announced, NASH is partnering with Scott Borchetta’s Big Machine Label Group to create a new home for older country artists from the last 25 years called NASH Icons, with the intent of taking talent forgotten by country music’s current Top 40 formula and giving them a new home on the radio, while also releasing new music from older artists through the NASH Icons record label. This talk has country music in a tizzy about how the partnership could enact a format split in country music.

Yes, there’s a whole lot of NASH going on.

Though there has certainly been a rise in interest in country music over the last few years as the genre has branched out to lure in fans of rock, pop, and hip-hop, the plans Cumulus Media have for NASH still come across as quite grandiose and involved, especially for a company that is saddled with tremendous debt, and is facing across-the-board double-digit ratings declines in many of its key markets, including with some of its key NASH stations. It’s flagship country station in New York is floundering, its high debt is eating into any positive revenue news, and it all makes one stand back and wonder, is all this NASH rhetoric real, or is it all smoke and mirrors? Is NASH simply “sizzle” to keep the Cumulus investors and partners believing in Lew Dickey’s vision, or is it the next big event in country music?

Let’s take a look.

The Debt and Revenue Issues

To say that Cumulus is leveraged heavy with debt doesn’t even begin to explain the half of it. The company currently owes roughly $2.23 billion to its debtors, and simply the interest on those loans sufficiently eats into the company’s profits on a quarterly basis. Cumulus is in a situation where even when revenues increase, debt interest still cuts deeply into profits. In December of 2013, Cumulus was able to refinance their debt in a move that will save them roughly $30 to $35 million in interest costs according to Moody’s, but the sheer size of the debt promises to weigh the company down and any of their plans for the near and long term.

As for revenue, for the first quarter of 2014, Cumulus reported a net loss of $9.27 million. This is worse than the $8.99 million loss from the first quarter of 2013, meaning Cumulus continues to lose money, and lose money at a growing rate. There is a small silver lining though. Revenue is actually up for the company. It increased $10.5 million to $292.0 million in the first quarter of 2014 from $281.5 million from Q1 of 2013. The reason for the discrepancy between revenue and net profit? The company’s debt and other expenses eat into any income. Leveraging even more debt and expenses through expenditures or acquisitions may turn the current financial formula even more unfavorably against Cumulus if more spending is necessary to see their plans for the NASH brand materialize.

The Ratings Issue

Simply put, the ratings for many Cumulus Media radio stations are awful. A recent move to replace conservative talk stalwarts Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity on Cumulus with the less-combative Michael Savage has seen a massive ratings dive for the company’s stalwart talk radio franchise. Ratings are down for many of the Cumulus NASH stations as well, including the flagship in New York City where NASH’s syndicated “America’s Morning Show” originates. The show is currently pulling a 1.9 share in New York, which is only good enough for 19th place in the city. In many markets, Clear Channel’s Bobby Bones Show is handedly beating its Cumulus counterpart. In Nashville for example, NASH’s affiliate WKDF-FM 103.3′s ratings are down 45% from a year before, partly due to the fact that Bobby Bones, who bases his show out of Nashville, and has taken over the market’s #1 spot.

Here is a breakdown of some other Cumulus stations, and their precipitous slide:

  • WABC/NY down 44%
  • KABC/LA down 52%
  • WLS/CHI down 57%
  • KGO/SF down 58%
  • KSFO/SF down 38%
  • WBAP/DAL down 32%
  • WLS-FM/CHI (Classic Hits) down 45.9%
  • KLOS-FM/LA (Classic Rock) down 24.6%
  • WGVX-FM/MN (Sports) down 80.8%
  • WKDF-FM/Nashville (Country) down 45.2%
  • WDVD-FM/Detroit (Hot Adult Contemporary) down 38.3%
  • KBEE-FM/SLC (Hot Adult Contemporary) down 50%


The Signing of Artists for NASH Icons

Who Scott Borchetta of Big Machine can sign to the recently-revealed NASH Icons label is going to be key to the success or failure to the venture, or its potential in instigating a format split for country music. On May 27th, in a moment that smacked of publicity sizzle, Lew Dickey announced that Scott Borchetta was aggressively looking to sign Garth Brooks, Faith Hill, Alan Jackson, Shania Twain, and other big-name country stars to the NASH Icons label. “I would look for Scott to make an announcement in the next 30 days,” Lew said, but is Lew just name dropping, and does any label owner, even one with the power of Scott Borchetta, really have the ability to sign a whole stable of big stars in such a short period?

Just because a label wants to sign artists, doesn’t mean they can. Though the contract situations of any artist can be complicated, and buyouts and other such deals are always possible, as first pointed out by Windmills Country, Alan Jackson appears to still be signed with EMI Nashville, hypothetically making him untouchable by NASH Icons. Shania Twain is still signed with Mercury Nashville, and Faith Hill likely still owes Warner Nashville an album. So even if Scott wanted to sign three of these four artists tied to NASH Icons, it might take some serious money or maneuvering. Scott Borchetta has worked with Garth Brooks in the past, and country’s biggest ever superstar is poised for a big comeback at any moment now that his daughter has graduated high school. But it can’t be presumed Garth would work with Borchetta who may not want to sign up for Garth’s no iTunes cause, or a bevy of other major sticking points that could arise between the two big personalities.

For Lew Dickey to drop such prodigious names and expect big signings announced in the manner of a month seems presumptive at the least, and maybe misleading. We’ll see.

 The Lew Dickey Issue


Lew Dickey

To say that Lew Dickey is unliked is an understatement when talking about certain sectors of the radio world and the media. Granted, many of Lew Dickey’s detractors can be found in the conservative media, and stem from Dickey’s handling of Rush Limbaugh and blaming Rush specifically for the precipitous backsliding of the company. Lew Dickey said Rush cost the company “millions” in the aftermath of a brushup between the talk show host and feminine activist Sandra Fluke in February of 2012.

But the Lew Dickey hatred goes deeper. Many radio personalities and insiders have a disagreeable view of Dickey for cutting local jobs to implement syndicated national programming, and generally gaming the radio system without regard for the future of the format.

There is a clear sentiment out there in portions of radio land that Lew Dickey is just puffing his chest out with NASH, and many of the promises for the name won’t be fulfilled, if only because the company won’t have the capital, financial flexibility, or managerial muscle to do it.

What is NASH, Really?

Even if Cumulus and Lew Dickey’s NASH dream becomes fully realized, there won’t be factories erected by Cumulus churning out pallets of NASH paint and leather couches with NASH’s big ‘N’ on the back. These products will likely be made through licensing deals Cumulus will strike with other companies to manufacture the actual products. While this scenario means it’s more likely the dream of an army of NASH products will find their way to a store shelf near you will actually happen, it also means the sale of those products won’t be as financially lucrative for Cumulus as they are for the actual manufacturers if they are successful. Lew Dickey’s bet is that the name recognition is what will pay off in the long run. Or, there may be very limited runs of these NASH products simply to help create a buzz. Or, it all just may be noise to create interest and support around the NASH endeavor and the Lew Dickey regime.

“Dickey is into branding — just like on cows. And he is stamping the ‘Nash’ emblem on everything country,” says nationally recognized radio and media insider Jerry Del Colliano, who published a critical piece on Cumulus, Lew Dickey, and the company’s NASH plans on May 19th called “Tough Shareholder Questions for Lew Dickey“. “He may start selling products, or it may be bullshit. With Dickey, you never know.”

According to Del Colliano, NASH Icons is simply an excuse to consolidate more country radio stations under syndicated programming. Though on the surface it may somewhat solve the issue of “classic” country artists getting pushed out of the country radio format prematurely, it will exacerbate the issue raised by radio research company Edison Research at the Country Radio Seminar in February, that the lack of local focus and syndication by Cumulus and Clear Channel in country radio is killing the format.

“Where Cumulus now has a successful country station, [Lew Dickey] is forcing the morning talent out and replacing them with a weak nationally syndicated morning show that is not local,” says Jerry Del Colliano. “Dickey should have no problem keeping big investors on board because they don’t understand the radio industry and probably don’t listen to any kind of country music. They hear the sound of money from a shrewd CEO who is selling sizzle, because if ratings or revenue is a yardstick, he is failing.”

“[Cumulus] throws nickels around like manhole covers — they aren’t going to spend ANY money on NASH,” continues Del Colliano. “It is one format for 100 plus stations some day. In other words, they pay for one station and fire everyone else. How is that investing in country?  It is hurting country by eliminating the local person center connection that is so unique to country music and artists. NASH is pop radio country style. NASH Icons will be traditional country but in a watered down cheap version. Icons is — to be blunt — just another format that will allow Cumulus to fire lots of local people and install a money saving 2nd national format. It could be Gregorian Chants for all the Dickeys care. This has little to do with country and lots to do with saving money by syndicating cheap national formats.”

As for why Scott Borchetta would deal with Lew Dickey and Cumulus, Jerry Del Colliano concludes, “Dickey is offering the promise of promotion that Borchetta likes, which is why he has similar deals with Clear Channel. Cumulus gets what it wants and Borchetta gets airplay. And what does Dickey want? Artists for on-air promotion, exclusives and free appearances in return.”

The next shoe to fall will be if, and who Scott Borchetta signs to NASH Icons in the next 2 1/2 week period laid out by Lew Dickey of when we could expect an announcement. In the meantime, what the true extent of what NASH, and NASH Icons will be, and if it could mean a new “classic” format for country radio will have to wait to be seen. For Cumulus, the venture may have no choice but to be wildly successful, because in the face of the implosion of their conservative talk business, and the move by many consumers to streaming alternatives to radio, NASH appears to be the centerpiece of the Cumulus plan to pull the company out of its current tailspin.

Jerry Del Colliano will be speaking at the “Talkers Conference in New York on June 20th.


GARTH-FM Becomes 103.9 The Hawk

June 2, 2014 - By Trigger  //  Podcasting/Radio  //  38 Comments

103.9-the-hawk-louisville, WRKAIt’s the little station in Louisville that has the country, or at least country music, paying close attention.

Kentucky’s 103.9 WRKA first created a stir over the Memorial Day weekend when they re-branded to the “All Garth, all the time” radio station GARTH-FM, playing Garth and Garth only on a 24 hour loop. Though it appeared to be what people in the radio business call “stunting”—where a radio station ahead of a format change plays the same song, or in this case, the same artist over and over to draw attention—the importance of WRKA’s move goes much deeper.

As hypothesized by many when GARTH-FM first hit the air, the radio station has arguably become the first in the country to adopt a new “classic” country format, first floated as an idea by radio trade publication writers, and first championed in public by the yet to be launched venture between the Big Machine Label Group and Cumulus Media called NASH Icons. The idea is to give a home to country artists that flourished in country music starting 25 years ago, when artists like Garth Brooks, Travis Tritt, and Clint Black first got their start; artists that have been all but abandoned by country radio. It all has country music and the radio world buzzing about a potential format split in country music, where Top-40 country and “classic” country stations could exists side by side.

On May 29th, Garth’s lawyers sent a cease and desist letter to WRKA, telling them to quit using Garth’s name to promote their station. They were still able to play Garth’s music, but this development may have forced WRKA to expedite their more long-term plans of becoming the country’s first station to reside in the “classic” 25-year window. On Monday morning, 103.9 rolled out their new format called “The Hawk – Louisville’s True Country.”

“The country listener that became a fan in the 1990’s when country really exploded can’t find those songs on the radio in Louisville right now,” says Operations Manager Shane Collins. “It’s a whole segment of the audience that’s being underserved. With the new 103.9 The Hawk, they can hear those big monster hits and artists all the time.”

Of course not everyone is happy with the move. The format the The Hawk replaced was one that played artists beyond the 25-year “classic” window; artists like Willie Nelson and Johnny Cash. But like it or hate it, 103.9 The Hawk will become the bellwether for country music’s potential new format, and there’s no doubt the rest of the country will be watching and listening to see how the new station is received.


The Split of Top 40 Country & Classic Country Is Upon Us

May 27, 2014 - By Trigger  //  Podcasting/Radio  //  49 Comments


The country music radio format that has resisted splintering for years could finally be cleaving into two distinct entities of “classic” and “Top 40″ country, initiated at least in part over the Memorial Day weekend when a radio station based out of Louisville, KY became the first to adopt a new “classic” country format centered around a 25-year measuring stick.

Though there are many “classic” country stations around the United States, the Summit Media-owned 103.9 in Louisville is the first to implement a much talked about 25-year retrospective that focuses on country music’s breakout era starting in the early 90′s with the rise of Garth Brooks and other powerhouse country stars. In fact to drive the idea home, 103.9 has reformatted the station to where right now they’re playing Garth, and only Garth, and are calling themselves GARTH-FM.

103.9-garth-fm-louisville“We feel like this era of music has gotten gradually ignored,” says the Director of Marketing for Summit Media in Louisville, Brian Eichenberger. “And what’s happening now is that country is going more and more pop in a lot of ways. You have the representation on the legends side, but you don’t necessarily have it in that 90′s to 2000′s, to 2002 period where country was really strong. And the best figure head for for that is Garth. So our first move was to make a strong statement about bringing that era back and making it all about Garth. May we add in other artists at some point? That’s highly possible. But right now we really want to make a statement about, ‘What happened to the 90′s? Let’s bring them back.’ And here’s Garth to do it. These guys are a really important part of the dialogue around country music over the last quarter of a century, and they’re disappearing from pop culture. We want to make sure that’s not happening.”

Though the brain trust behind GARTH-FM says their idea predates the big announcement by the Big Machine Label Group and Cumulus Media last week that they will be launching a new NASH Icons venture focusing on the 25-year “classic” country music era, GARTH-FM may eventually sound very much like what NASH Icons has in mind. Since the Summit Media-owned 103.9 in Louisville is autonomous from the reach of Cumulus, their move speaks to the broad-based, multi-company support for a “classic” country format that would need to exist if the idea is to have enough support to truly split country music in two. Summit Media’s Brian Eichenberger thinks this split is a very real possibility.

“This splintering is happening in country music in general, where it’s forming into these two camps where before it has always been one format, and you would say Luke Bryan and Johnny Cash were country, or Luke Bryan and Garth Brooks in the same sentence. But slowly that’s starting to—at least from a radio standpoint—splinter a bit. I mean we hear it all the time. We’ll hear, ‘We’ll I really don’t like country, but I like Florida Georgia Line.’ Or you’ll hear, ‘I really don’t like Florida Georgia Line, that’s a bunch of pop crap. But give me Merle, give me Johnny,’ or even up to ‘Give me Garth and Alan.’ So yeah, I think that’s going to happen.”

In fact we may see it happening among smaller radio stations first, before big companies like Cumulus Media and its NASH Icons venture, or Clear Channel can re-deploy resources to meet the impending trend. “Sometimes when you’re a smaller company you can actually move a little faster,” says Brian Eichenberger. “There’s less parts in the machine to get mobilized. I think we do have that working to our advantage. We’re doing what we think this market in particular needs. We definitely have the support of our corporate office, but we focus as a smaller company on what we can do to really adhere to our metro area and the million people that are here. And we definitely feel like this is something that this market is ready for.”

Scott Borchetta

Scott Borchetta

Though the splitting of the country format in theory means bringing back artists that have been left behind by country radio’s recent obsession with youth, the biggest concern coming from traditional country fans is if the new format might cannibalize some, or many of the traditional country stations out there that already exist, but don’t adhere to the new 25-year format. And according to a recent interview with Big Machine Label Group’s Scott Borchetta, that’s exactly what he expects to happen. Borchetta says about NASH Icons, “The new brand will replace many of their classic country stations, plus extend to syndicated shows, secondary station markets, touring and print.”

This concern is further driven home by GARTH-FM, which replaced an already-existing format that focused on classic country outside the 25-year window. “We’re all aging,” Brian Eichenberger explains, “and so slowly the folks that are 40 and 50, the stuff that they remember, the stuff that is their nostalgic go-to music for when they were in high school and college is going to be this stuff that has started to disappear. Whenever there’s a new generation of people coming up, the music they were fond of, that quintessential 16 to 22-year-old range, is the stuff that beings re-appearing.”

However at the heart of the proposed classic country format, even with its 25-year limitation, is to reinstate many artists who’ve been forgotten by mainstream country radio. “We found an open lane,” says Scott Borchetta, “a way for artists like Reba McEntire, Martina McBride, Alan Jackson and others to make new music and get it on the radio and tour. We’re going to feature their new music next to the classic songs. So if those are your favorite artists—news flash—they didn’t die! The business just didn’t take care of them. Artists I talk to about this are thrilled to get their music back on the radio and we hope the fans will engage the same way.”

What could emerge from this format split could be something very similar to rock music, where you have “oldies” stations, “classic” stations, and Top 40 stations. “If you look at radio formats in general, you will see that oldies [rock] format used to live in the 50′s and 60′s, and it has slowly been disappearing,” says Summit Media’s Brian Eichenberger. “Over time, classic rock has moved from being something that started in the 60′s, and went maybe into the early 80′s, and is slowly moving closer and closer to where there’s classic rock stations playing Candlebox and Pearl Jam. As the audience ages, those definitions are going to become a little more fluid. And I do think there’s going to be this country transition where the classic rock of country formats will kind of bridge between the oldies country and the new country.”


New 103.9 GARTH-FM Plays Garth, & Only Garth

May 26, 2014 - By Trigger  //  Podcasting/Radio  //  42 Comments

103.9-garth-fm-louisvilleDo you like Garth Brooks? Do you really like Garth Brooks? To the point where you’re so smitten with Garth’s music you’d be inclined to listen to it 24/7 and nothing else? Well then your in luck neighbor, because a new radio station has just popped up called GARTH-FM in Louisville, KY at 103.9 on the dial, serving the surrounding area and the entire world via the internet with Garth, and Garth only. The station’s slogan is “Garth, The Whole Garth, and Nothing But The Garth.”

The format change for the Summit Media-owned radio station happened over the Memorial Day weekend. It was first thought to be what’s known in the radio station business as “stunting”—where a station will play the same song, or maybe the same artist over and over to draw attention ahead of a format change. But the commitment to GARTH-FM goes much deeper, or that’s what they’re saying at the moment. “There has been attention both inside and outside the industry recently regarding the absence of Garth on country radio these days,” Summit Media Louisville Operations Manager Shane Collins says, citing a recent Inside Radio article on the subject. “We really feel like there is a gap here that needs to be filled.”

Now that gap will be filled in a big way, and 103.9 GARTH-FM will be the first full service radio station to solely play one artist. Illustrating the station’s commitment to Garth, they’ve set up and to stream the station online.

Summit Media, the parent company of GARTH-FM, owns about 24 radio stations throughout Kentucky, Alabama, South Carolina, Virginia, and Hawaii, including 3 other Louisville-based radio stations, including the area’s “NEW Country Q 103.1″ Top 40 country counterpart to GARTH-FM.

READ: Country Music Writes A Letter to Garth Brooks

The launching of GARTH-FM adds an interesting wrinkle to the discussion of a potential upcoming format split for country music, with Top 40 country, and “classic” country from the last 25 years going their separate ways. Rumors that this reality might be in the offing were stimulated when Big Machine Records struck a deal with radio giant Cumulus Media to start a new NASH Icons venture.

Another interesting note is that the radio station format that GARTH-FM is replacing was already playing classic country. The previous “Country Legends 103.9″ established on July 23rd, 2008 touted “playing hits from Johnny Cash, Willie Nelson and Randy Travis.” This creates the question if a potential paradigm shift of country radio into two formats will potentially cannibalize under-performing classic or traditional radio stations that play music beyond this all-of-a-sudden magic 25-year “classic” country window, when big artists like Garth Brooks started their commercial ascent. There is also the possibility that as time goes on, GARTH-FM, just like many stations, could morph into this new 25-year “classic” country format and cover multiple artists.

When we look back, the changeover to GARTH-FM could be a symbolic moment where the cleaving of country music into two formats began …. or a silly idea that was short lived.

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UPDATE: Director of Marketing for Summit Media in Louisville, Brian Eichenberger says, “May we add in other artists at some point? That’s highly possible. But right now we really want to make a statement about, ‘What happened to the 90′s? Let’s bring them back.’ And here’s Garth to do it.READ FULL UPDATE


Classic & Contemporary Country Could Go Separate Ways

May 19, 2014 - By Trigger  //  Podcasting/Radio  //  30 Comments


country-music-split-004Courtesy of SCM’s Special Effects & Poor Photoshopping Dept.

Last week when it was announced that arguably the most powerful country music label in Nashville—-the Big Machine Label Group—was partnering with the 2nd biggest radio station owner in America—Cumulus Media—-to launch a brand new “classic” country venture called NASH Icons that will cover country music from the last 25 years, including releasing albums, setting up live events, and producing comparable programming for radio, there was a sense from the people that cover such things that this news was much more important than the particulars of the Cumulus/Big Machine deal itself. It seemed to be the first step in a precarious walk that country music has been on the brink of for a while now: a potential format split—a clean break for classic country and contemporary country to go about their merry ways and pursue their own fortunes, to be beholden to each other no longer, and put deep-seated resentments and incessant arguments about the direction of the genre to bed for good.

Envision a day where all the current Top 40 country that classic country fans are incensed over is segregated into its own autonomous format, with its own radio stations, and potentially even its own awards, special events and festivals. And the same could happen for classic country. It could have it’s own place to not forget the past, and respect the roots of the genre. With the announcement of the Big Machine / Cumulus deal, the daunting task of splitting country music not only looks possible, it looks like it could be mutually amicable, and a potentially pragmatic way to address many of the problems plaguing the format.

edison-researchSimply looking at the research data for country radio, a format split almost seems pre-ordained. Country radio is not working, and this is beyond opinion, this is tirelessly borne out in research. Every year, radio luminaries and personalities congregate in Nashville in late February for the Country Radio Seminar, and virtually every year, a market research company called Edison Research delivers dire reports about the state of country radio and its continued slide. In 2012, Edison Research brought a study to the conference that proved that country listeners wanted more classic country on radio, and that by following the youth movement, country radio was abandoning large segments of its core audience.

“I believe that we as an industry have really made a mistake in our conception of our own stations,” Larry Rosin of Edison Research said. “While many people don’t want to listen to classic country music, some still do, and we’ve let them float away…We run the risk that we just are more and more pleasing to fewer and fewer people until all we are is ecstatically pleasing a tiny, unsustainable number of people.”

In 2014, Edison Research went further to explain that the same young listeners that country radio is relying on more and more are themselves relying more and more on streaming and other alternative options to radio as opposed to older listeners who tend to use radio more. Larry Rosin implored that “Country radio – radio – is in the fight of its life,” and that voicetracked, or non-live and non-local shows were “essentially a disaster for the radio industry.”

So the writing is on the wall that something needs to happen to country radio, and even though the research and numbers irrefutably seem to be telling country radio that the narrowing of the format to focus on youth and consolidated programming to syndicated national shows is not working, country radio seems to be powerless to change any of these trends. Money is slipping through the fingers of the country music industry because they are under serving so many of the same demographics that have always made up the genre’s core audience.

Scott Borchetta

Scott Borchetta

So here comes Big Machine’s Scott Borchetta, a savvy, new school-style music executive who is a master at finding holes in the market that nobody ever even knew existed, and turning them into revenue streams. As much as some classic country fans may want to decry Borchetta for deepening the youth trends in country, he himself can see there is millions being lost by under serving country’s more classic-style listeners, and he decides to do something about it.

Could a spit of country radio really be possible? Billboard’s radio expert Sean Ross, writer of the Ross on Radio column seems to think so, saying in a recent article, “By partnering with Big Machine Label Group, Cumulus has planted the seed for country radio to do something it has resisted for years: fragment into two different formats that both expose current music.”

Key to the split appears to be this 25 year mark, which as Sean Ross points out was “a period of superstar acts and mass-appeal records that were more widely heard at the time, and heard by a younger audience.” But even more important to understand is that this new “classic” format is not just about playing old songs from older artists, but playing new songs from older artists, and potentially, even older-sounding songs from newer artists. In other words, if this new classic country format becomes a reality, it could not only give a home to artists like Randy Travis and George Strait who’ve been all but forgotten by radio, it could also give a home to artists like Sturgill Simpson and the Turnpike Troubadours who play new music, but in a more classic style. The new classic format could finally be the much longed-for way to expose country’s overlooked independent artists to a wide, national radio audience.

But let’s not get ahead of ourselves. Big Machine and Cumulus could be two huge companies with a lot of sway in the music industry, but do they really have the muscle to set up an entirely new radio format by themselves? They may not, and most important to understand about the NASH Icons deal is it doesn’t just involve radio, but album releases, and other cross-format events that will certainly take into consideration the current realities of music, including the declining use of radio in general, as well as declining physical sales.

nashNASH Icons will be multi-pronged. But so will be the potential answer from Cumulus and Big Machine’s competition, especially if the venture is successful. It seems strange that Big Machine’s Scott Borchetta chose Cumulus as his dance partner, instead of their bigger rival Clear Channel, which Borchetta has already made a number of historic deals with in recent years. It could be because Cumulus is more focused on their NASH branding, and is willing to concede certain things to get their big ‘N’ emblem out there. But this certainly doesn’t mean that Clear Channel will sit tight and not try to launch their own classic format.

Clear Channel & Cumulus have been locked in a media arms race. When Clear Channel started adding more syndicated, national programming with personalities like Bobby Bones and Cody Alan, Cumulus launched their “American Morning Show” with Blair Garner and Terri Clark. When Clear Channel began to focus on their iHeartRadio app, Cumulus partnered with streaming app Rdio. It’s certainly not unreasonable to think Clear Channel could launch a venture similar to NASH Icons soon, and this could start a chain reaction across the country and spring a brand new classic country format into being.

Of course there is a long way to go before this is a reality, but with the announcement of NASH Icons, we’ve never been closer to a classic/contemporary country divorce. Would it be good for country music, and for country radio? That would remain to be seen, borne out in the particulars of how the new split formats formed. The classic rock format has obviously been wildly successful for radio over the years, aside from feeling tired from a lack of new music being interjected into it by its programmers. And classic rock has existed right beside “oldies” stations, which are the equivalent to the traditional country stations that exist to a smaller degree in the American radio landscape, and do quite well in certain places covering music beyond the 25-year “classic” window.

The difference between NASH Icons and classic rock though, is the new music quotient that would keep the format relevant and vibrant. We could even see the CMA recognize both “Classic” and “Contemporary” Albums of the Year, and other fundamental changes to the format to face both it’s growing reach, and widening demographics. Remember everyone talking about George Strait’s wins for Entertainer of the Year at the CMA and ACM awards as parting gifts to classic country? This could be another sign of the almost inevitable split.

Of course we may be getting way ahead of ourselves. But the possibility of a format split, and a new “classic” country format being launched is very real. And if the new format does take hold, it may dramatically change the paradigm for country music, and finally return classic-style country to the ears of thirsty listeners.


Cumulus & Big Machine Partner for “Classic” Nash Icons Venture

May 14, 2014 - By Trigger  //  Podcasting/Radio  //  26 Comments

nashAs Saving Country Music has been saying all year, mergers, acquisitions, and cross-platform partnerships are going to be the big story of 2014, and will reorganize and churn country music in a manner that the genre has never seen before in its entire history. At the forefront of this historic reorganization has been America’s two biggest radio station owners: Clear Channel & Cumulus, who are betting big on country to become America’s most dominant radio format. Right beside them making big moves is arguably the most powerful label in country music at the moment: Scott Borchetta’s Big Machine Records. The Big Machine Label Group has already reached landmark deals with Clear Channel for the use of its artists’ music on radio, and with other entities such as Dr. Luke. And now Big Machine has partnered with Cumulus on a venture that very well could end up creating an entirely new sub-genre or sub-format of country music.

Announced late Tuesday, NASH Icons, a takeoff on Cumulus’ already-established nationally-syndicated NASH brand, is a partnership with the Big Machine Label Group for the purpose of taking old and new music from artists “of the past 25 years” and giving its own place to live. Though no specific artists to be featured have been detailed yet, the idea seems to encompass music from performers like Big Machine’s Tim McGraw and Reba McEntire, and many others artists like Garth Brooks and Randy Travis who’ve had big careers in the past 25 years and that have massive back catalogs of country music that have been virtually abandoned by mainstream radio and many major record labels.

Though detailed specifics of exactly what NASH Icons will look like once it rolls out have not been made available, the two companies are planning a NASH Icons record label that would distribute both old and new music from NASH Icons artists. NASH Icons will also host live events such as special media programming, and potentially tours and festivals, and have streaming and syndicated radio programs specifically catering to the NASH Icons 25-year brand.

Though the term “classic” has been thrown out there to describe the country music that will be featured with the new venture, it appears to be purposely focused on music from a 25-year window, meaning that anything before 1989—when artists like Garth Brooks, Clint Black, and Brooks & Dunn really started their rise—will likely not be included.

As consumer study group Edison Research has pointed out numerous times over the past few years, mainstream country radio has been ignoring its classic country fan base, and the result has been an acceleration of country radio’s loss of listeners that has already been occurring naturally because of the emergence of new media options for consumers like Pandora, Spotify, and satellite radio. This venture signals from both Cumulus and Big Machine that they recognize there is an untapped market for older country music that has been ignored in a growing manner by mainstream country radio focusing on youth and the here-and-now.

Study: Radio Consolidation Not Working

However the move could also accelerate this trend if anything seen as “classic” is moved to an entirely different format. If 25-year-old country music is completely segregated from mainstream country, it leaves mainstream country to become a true, current-only country equivalent of Top 40, where any music over a couple of years old will be entirely stricken from the format. In other words, older country could be banished to the old folks home, out of sight and out of mind from mainstream consumers. This trend could also spread to industry award shows and other cultural institutions of country music.

At the same time, it could also finally give aging country artists and fans a format, and somewhere to go when mainstream radio will no longer pay attention to them.

Big Machine and Cumulus would not be getting into this business if they didn’t feel there was money to be made. At the same time, the two companies may see this as a way to placate much of the current criticism being levied at the country oligarchy for abandoning its roots, and abandoning the artists and fans that made country into the commercially-successful format it is today.

What the true impact of NASH Icons will be is yet to be seen, or if Clear Channel, Cumulus’ main rival, will launch their own “classic” venture with another partner, as the two media giants saddled with billions in debt and looking toward country music as their way out  match each other tit for tat in the current country music media arms race. The billions of debt that Cumulus carries, along with their other plans for big-minded partnerships and licensing deals that include making NASH-branded food, clothing, furniture, and even paint cast the question of how the company plans to levy the capital to pay for this all, and if country is truly on such a meteoric rise that all the entities looking to capitalize off of it will end up cannibalizing each other as they all fight for the same slices of the pie, regardless of how much that pie is incrementally growing.

Either way, this partnership is not just fodder for Page 2 of radio trade publications. This could spark a significant moment in creating a new format for the country music that has been abandoned by the mainstream, or it could stimulate mainstream country abandoning its roots even further. Or both.


Conservative Talk Could Kill Country Radio’s Big Plans

April 8, 2014 - By Trigger  //  Podcasting/Radio  //  45 Comments

rush-limbaughOne of the big behind-the-scenes/industry stories in country music in 2014 has been the formation of gargantuan media partnerships in an attempt to make huge cross-format monopolies consisting of radio, television, online, print, and streaming content that will create a favorable environment for big advertisers looking to tap into country’s lucrative consumer demographics. Anchored by America’s two biggest radio station owners—Clear Channel & Cumulus—the country music media landscape is being reorganized like never before. The New York Times recently ran a story focusing to the Cumulus side of things, while calling country “one of radio’s biggest success stories over the last decade” as the genre gets younger and loses its hayseed image.

But there is a problem. And it’s a big one, for both Clear Channel, Cumulus, and many of their smaller competitors.

Radio is losing money, and losing money at an alarming, unsustainable pace. The problem for American radio is many fold, and has partly to do with some company’s strategies amongst massive red ink and increasing debt to cut costs by slashing labor and nationalizing programming; a strategy that is creating a disconnect with American listeners as streaming options become more prevalent, according to media research company Edison Research.

Though country has been lucrative for the radio business in some respects, and this is the reason media is betting big on country for its future, it may be too little, too late, as debt mounts, credit ratings get slashed, and radio, despite its continued dominance in the marketplace as a whole, faces increasing competition from new technologies.

And then there is the radio industry’s biggest problem: Conservative talk radio.

cumulus-mediaThough the New York Times portrayal of the new Cumulus mega media beehive seemed to be one of forward-thinking and fat times amidst country’s rising popularity, the fact is Cumulus, its chief rival Clear Channel, and many other smaller radio-based media companies are in a very bad way right now because conservative talk radio—the previous cash cow of the business—is in an absolute tailspin, making many of these media giants not just bleed money, but hemorrhage it, as radio ratings are nose diving right and left.

In one year, Cumulus Media’s revenue has fallen an astounding 87.4%, from roughly $56 million a quarter to $7.4 million year over year. gives Cumulus a ‘C – ‘ rating, and the stock has “significantly underperformed” compared to its peers on the S&P 500.

A lot of the blame for the disappearing revenue is being given to the decision of conservative talk personality Sean Hannity to switch from Cumulus to rival Clear Channel. This swing has caused many of Cumulus’ biggest stations to see a plummet in ratings. Replacements like Gov. Mike Huckabee and Geraldo Rivera didn’t pan out, and it has put the company on a path to insolvency.

The Cumulus ratings problems aren’t just with conservative talk though. The company is seeing ratings drop in virtually all of their major, important markets and across all formats of radio, including some key country music stations. A recent breakdown of Cumulus’ ratings woes paints just how broad the company’s ratings issue is, including their Nashville-based country station that has seen a ratings slip of 45% in the last year.

  • WABC/NY down 44%
  • KABC/LA down 52%
  • WLS/CHI down 57%
  • KGO/SF down 58%
  • KSFO/SF down 38%
  • WBAP/DAL down 32%
  • WLS-FM/CHI (Classic Hits) down 45.9%
  • KLOS-FM/LA (Classic Rock) down 24.6%
  • WGVX-FM/MN (Sports) down 80.8%
  • WKDF-FM/Nashville (Country) down 45.2%
  • WDVD-FM/Detroit (Hot Adult Contemporary) down 38.3%
  • KBEE-FM/SLC (Hot Adult Contemporary) down 50%

With huge plans from Cumulus chief Lew Dickey to create a country music media empire under the “NASH” brand—scheduled to include a takeover of Country Weekly Magazine, and the marketing of everything from food, paint, furniture, and clothing with their NASH emblem, the economic realities beg the question of how the company will have the financial flexibility to pull off such a feat, especially when country itself has proved to not be immune to the company’s downturn. Cumulus is also not as insulated to the upcoming technology paradigm as its rival Clear Channel who has their iHeartRadio streaming app to fall back on.

clear-channelBut Clear Channel has a big problem too, to the tune of $300+ million quarterly losses, and $4.2 billion in debt on their own balance sheets. And once again, the root of the problem can be traced back to conservative talk radio, and specifically Rush Limbaugh. In fact Rush Limbaugh is so big, the flight of sponsors from his show is affecting both Clear Channel & Cumulus, who both carry the conservative talk juggernaut, as do many other smaller companies and independent stations.

Lew Dickey of Cumulus directly blamed Rush Limbaugh for the loss of “millions” last year, though the controversy cited for spurning the Cumulus revenue calamity was a brushup between Rush and Sandra Fluke which happened way back in February of 2012. Limbaugh is carried on 40 Cumulus-owned channels and the company said in May of 2013 that 48 of the top 50 radio advertisers in the country won’t work with Rush Limbaugh, or Sean Hannity. Meanwhile Rush’s massive, $400 million contract is still on the books until 2016, symbolizing the commitment radio has made to conservative talk, and how unwieldy and difficult it will be to unravel itself from it.

But as bad as Rush Limbaugh is for Cumulus, it’s worse for Clear Channel where the majority of Rush’s affiliates are found.

Clear Channel’s conundrum is even more daunting according to a recent Bloomberg report because their backs are against the wall financially. Clear Channel has lost money in every single quarter since its buyout in 2008 by Bain Captial and Thomas H. Lee Partners. In December of 2013, Clear Channel rolled its debt into a new term loan by offering more than double the interest rate so the company would get three more years to turn around their revenue woes. What that means is Clear Channel is now spending even more money each year on loan interest, roughly $1.58 billion dollars, and interest expenses have surpassed the company’s operating income.

So what does all this mean for country music?

With the big companies that serve country music listeners betting big on country as the next big thing, but at the same time facing mounting debt, anemic revenue, and loans coming due, the entire thing could topple and create a scenario where the huge media companies are not coagulating around the cause of country music, but being liquidated and broken up in the face of bankruptcies and reorganizations.

What makes the prospects look even worse is that these big companies are fighting over each other for the same consumer dollars, setting up a scenario where they not only have to battle for attention with new digital media, but with each other. Undoubtedly one of the reasons for the sharp decline in ratings of the Cumulus country station in Nashville is because Clear Channel has stationed their big radio personality Bobby Bones in the same city. Similar scenarios are playing out across the country, with the two companies cannibalizing each other over the same listeners.

Or the big bet on country music could pay off because of the rising interest in the genre, and just as conservative talk radio became the golden goose for radio in the 90′s, so could country radio be in the coming years.

Though with the rise of streaming media, the elimination of radios in some new cars, and the implosion of conservative talk radio creating a difficult economic environment, the bet on country music is one that’s certainly risky, with the destiny of mainstream country music now intimately intertwined with the fortunes of a few big companies with questionable futures.


New Study Proves Why Radio Still Matters

April 3, 2014 - By Trigger  //  Podcasting/Radio  //  29 Comments

edison-researchWhenever the topic of radio is broached on Saving Country Music, it solicits strong reactions from people who can’t imagine why any lover of music would ever trust their musical fate to the radio dial, especially when so many other options exist these days, whether it be SiriusXM satellite radio, streaming options like Pandora and Spotify, or popping in a good old-fashioned CD or listening it an iPod. But the simple fact remains, radio is still the most widely used format for music listeners, confirmed by a new study by Edison Research. And even more importantly, radio is where listeners go to discover new music. 75% of listeners use radio to keep up-to-date with music, while only 20% use SiriusXM, and only 18% use Spotify (see chart below).

Sure, the convenience and accessibility of radio is why it is an easy option, especially for passive, busy consumers who don’t want to make music discovery a primary focus of their lives. However the intangible of radio is that it helps music listeners connect with their community and each other. Unlike when you’re listening to music on a CD, or streaming it on Pandora, while listening to the radio you are sharing in the moment with a human DJ and thousands, maybe millions of other listeners through the radio medium. This was the warning Edison Researched sounded at the Country Radio Seminar in February about Cumulus and Clear Channel’s plans to nationalize the radio dial with syndicated programming like DJ Bobby Bones and his massive country morning show, now reaching over 60 markets. This type of disconnect from the local dynamic is what hinders streaming services, satellite radio, and ultimately could mean the demise of radio’s unique advantage, Edison Research warns.

Radio’s days might be numbered, but right now, it still rules the roost, and by a wide margin over its emerging, online competitors, while streaming local radio shows online with tools like Clear Channel’s iHeartRadio app are becoming a common way for consumers to have the best of both worlds: the local connection of radio, matched with the clarity and variety of streaming.

Meanwhile there’s talk of trying to make smartphones that actually contain radio tuners in them, especially in light of talk from automobile manufacturers about eliminating CD players and even radios from new vehicles.

Another interesting note about the Edison Research study is that amongst the coveted 12 to 24-year-old demographic (i.e. the kids that set the upcoming trends for consumers), YouTube ranks as the highest medium for keeping them “up-to-date” on music. Coupled with changes to Billboard’s charts that register YouTube data, it drives home the importance of artists having a presence on YouTube, even if it is used more for audio than for dedicated videos for songs.

For active music listeners, like ones that would frequent a site like Saving Country Music, it may be hard to understand why radio listeners would ever maintain their loyalty to the format in the face of consolidation and constricting playlists. But for the vast majority of consumers, it is still their primary window into the music world. It is also the channel through which starving, worthy artists could connect with more listeners.





Bobby Bones Takes Over DC, Now Has Over 60 Stations

March 7, 2014 - By Trigger  //  Podcasting/Radio  //  41 Comments

bobby-bones-showThe reach of Clear Channel radio’s country music flagship personality was extended again this week when it was announced Bobby Bones will make his entrance into yet another major American market, shoving more local morning talent aside in favor of syndicated national radio. Clear Channel station WMZQ in Washington D.C. will now feature Bobby Bones in the mornings, bringing the amount of radio stations broadcasting his show to 60, and the estimated count of potential listeners of The Bobby Bones Show to 60 million.

Bobby Bones replaces local personality “Boxer” whose local radio show ran on WMZQ in the mornings and was beloved by many local radio listeners, not just for his on-air personality, but through his work with his non-profit, Boxer’s Kids. The Boxer show will be moved to the less-desirable midday slot. “Boxer…I’ve been listening for almost 3yrs and you are an awesome morning person…I will miss you and will not be listening to syndicates…” posted one Boxer fan on the show’s Facebook page. Another fan posted, “Just heard Boxer is moving, he and Ally wake me up and get me through my morning commute.”

Anti Bobby Bones Billboards Spring Up in Nashville

The replacement of Boxer by Bobby Bones is a narrative playing out all across the United States as the two major radio station owners of Clear Channel and Cumulus implement more nationalized programming and reduce the local color of the radio waves in the midst of a media arms race heating up in country music.

Late last month at the Country Radio Seminar in Nashville, a research study conducted by Edison Research found that “Country radio – radio – is in the fight of its life,” and that voicetracked, or non-live and non-local shows as part of radio consolidation are “essentially a disaster for the radio industry” according to Edison Research’s Larry Rosin. “It’s never been more important to play up live and local,” Edison Research’s Jane Charneski also said as part of the seminar, yet Clear Channel’s implementation of syndicated programming continues stronger than ever. Clear Channel lost $309 million in the last quarter, compared to a $191 million loss in the same quarter the year before.


Bobby Bones Plays Cancer Card in Kacey Musgraves Feud

March 4, 2014 - By Trigger  //  Podcasting/Radio  //  42 Comments

kacey-musgraves-bobby-bones-2As a continuation of the feud that Clear Channel flagship DJ Bobby Bones got into with Kacey Musgraves in January, the radio personality has posted a new video purportedly pouring his heart out to the Grammy winner and wanting to patch things up, going as far as evoking the name of Cancer to try and find some sort of conclusion to the feud. “It would mean a lot to me if you came and played ‘Joy’ week, which is all about choosing joy over fighting Cancer,” Bobby says in a crude video taken at the Madison, Wisconsin airport, with Bobby slouched back in a leather chair, engrossed in a big green jacket.

Aside from the poor syntax of alluding that anyone would choose anything over fighting Cancer, the new video once again shows Bobby’s tendency to place blame on others while framing it in the context of an apology, to believe that as a DJ he’s somehow an equal to the artists he covers and deserves their acknowledgement and friendship, while throwing the big ‘C’ ball into Kacey’s court so if she doesn’t respond or acquiesce, then she’s somehow the big bitch.

The unpleasantness between Kacey and Bobby all began on November 5th, 2013, the day before the 2013 CMA Awards. Musgraves was interviewed by Bones as part of a pre-awards production, and the interview lasted roughly 1 1/2 minutes. But the full interview never aired on The Bobby Bones Show. Bobby took about 20 seconds of the interview, and used it as part of a segment he called, “Is Kacey Musgraves Annoyed?” The segment basically lampoons Kacey as being rude, uninterested, and awkward. Later Bones attempted to reach out to Musgraves through Twitter, and when she didn’t respond, Bones became belligerent (a recurring theme with the DJ and Twitter), and called Musgraves (and himself) a “shit head.”

Anti Bobby Bones Billboards Spring Up in Nashville

When Bones wouldn’t get the hint that Kacey wanted nothing to do with him, she finally said in part, “I am a songwriter and a musician. That’s what I’ve been passionate about my entire life and it’s really sad that the focus got taken away from that. Above all- I’m human. Not a robot. I don’t stroke egos and that doesn’t make me a “shit head.” When you hear the music that means so much to me to make, that’s all that should matter.”

What seems to be fundamentally alluding Bobby Bones is that Kacey Musgraves wants nothing to do with him, and furthermore, doesn’t see any reason why she should have to, while Bones apparently believes it is his right to be heard and acknowledged by Kacey, or some injustice has been done. Maybe Kacey will decide to make an appearance on his show, and maybe the two will patch things up. And if that’s the case, it will be Kacey being the bigger person. But if Kacey knew best, she would continue to ignore him, and if Bobby knew best, he would honor Kacey’s wishes of being left alone and move on.


Study: Radio Consolidation Not Working

March 3, 2014 - By Trigger  //  Podcasting/Radio  //  30 Comments

edison-researchIf you listen to the rhetoric of country music’s major labels or the executives of country radio’s biggest companies, most will tell you all is rosy on the country radio front. But the research tends to always be on the side of country music fans sounding the warning bells that the genre has strayed too far away from its roots, and is being unresponsive to the wishes and tastes of a wide swath of the country music listening demographic. Such was the case in 2012 when an Edison Research study concluded that listeners want more classic country on radio. Edison Research’s Larry Rosin as part of the Country Radio Seminar in Nashville said,

“I believe that we as an industry have really made a mistake in our conception of our own stations. While many people don’t want to listen to classic country music, some still do, and we’ve let them float away…We run the risk that we just are more and more pleasing to fewer and fewer people until all we are is ecstatically pleasing a tiny, unsustainable number of people.”

This year at the Country Radio Seminar, Larry Rosin was once again sounding the warning bells about the viability of country music on the radio moving forward in the face of rapid consolidation, the evaporation of local and live programming, and the emergence of new technologies and services competing with radio like Spotify and smart phones.

Though things are looking very good for country music in general, country radio is another case according to Rosin and Edison Research. Despite 77% of people agreeing that “Country music is a significant part of American culture,” and 73% of people agreeing that “Country music is becoming more popular,” Larry Rosin says that “Country radio – radio – is in the fight of its life,” and that voicetracked, or non-live and non-local shows are “essentially a disaster for the radio industry.”

Why? Because country music’s demographics are becoming much younger as the format moves away from the more traditional sound of the genre. Edison Research found that the amount of 12 to 34-year-olds listening to country music positively surged in 2013 from 12% to 27%. But since millenials are more likely to consume their music through technological alternatives to traditional over-the-air radio, the future looks grim for the format. As country radio is abandoning older demographics in favor of a new sound, and the fans of the new sound are abandoning the radio format in favor of new technologies, the amount of people country radio appeals to is getting slimmer by the minute.

Another very interesting statistic Edison Research found is that 62% of people believe “too many country songs sound the same,” once again calling concern to country music’s current trend of male-dominated laundry list or “bro country” songs and the limited amount of songwriters writing the majority of country music’s current hits.

The accumulative conclusions of Edison Research speak to what Saving Country Music and other critics of country music’s current trajectory have been saying for years: that country music is amidst a sugar rush of popularity that is statistically unsustainable and may result in not just creative, but economic burnout of the format in the coming future, especially on radio. So what can be done about it?

According to Larry Rosin and Edison Research, country radio needs to “double and redouble” its efforts to feature live and local shows. The reason is because research into the listening habits and desires of country music’s growing millenial population says that they favor buying local, and they like local personalities as part of their music listening experience. On-air personalities and programming custom made for local tastes and local listeners is the strategic advantage radio has over services like Spotify and Pandora. “It’s never been more important to play up live and local,” says Edison Research’s Jane Charneski.

But of course, this is the exact opposite of what is happening with country radio. Amidst a country music media arms race, the two biggest radio station owners in America—Clear Channel and Cumulus—are fighting it out for who can feature the best nationalized programming under the premise that it is cheaper to pay one DJ and distribute them across your entire radio network as opposed to paying local DJ’s at every radio station the company owns. But once again, this is just feeding the American consumer’s flight from traditional radio. Though companies like Clear Channel are dramatically cutting costs through their consolidation efforts, the company reported a $309 million loss in the last quarter, compared to a $191 million loss in the same quarter the year before. So not only is it bad for radio’s big consolidators, it’s getting worse.

It all is enough to leave the country music radio consumer baffled as to why anyone thinks the idea of radio consolidation will work. Dissent against radio for abandoning country music’s traditional roots, for leaving behind local programming, and for trying to make money by cutting costs instead of trying to appeal to more consumers is not just a matter of taste or opinion. It is clear through specific statistics and research that these things are eroding country radio’s long-term foundation, and the only way to stop it and to retain the solvency of country radio itself is to reverse course.


Scott Borchetta Said WHAT? (2014 Country Radio Seminar Primer)

February 18, 2014 - By Trigger  //  Podcasting/Radio  //  27 Comments


This week in Nashville is the annual CRS or Country Radio Seminar where executives and personalities in country radio gather with executives and artists in the country music industry to hobnob, network, and attend workshops and presentations about the direction and future of radio and country music. This year the backdrop of CRS most certainly will be the Country Music Media Arms Race breaking out in 2014 (see more about this below).

Bits of interesting news about the country music radio industry tend to trickle out of CRS week, like a couple of years ago when an Edison Research study concluded that country listeners wanted more classic country on the radio. Edison Research President Larry Rosin said at the time, “I believe that we as an industry have really made a mistake in our conception of our own stations. While many people don’t want to listen to classic country music, some still do, and we’ve let them float away…We run the risk that we just are more and more pleasing to fewer and fewer people until all we are is ecstatically pleasing a tiny, unsustainable number of people.”

Scott Borchetta Quizzically Compares Big Machine Music to a Ferrari,  not McDonald’s.

Even before the CRS events got started in earnest Monday evening, many interesting pieces of information about radio and country music emerged in the run up to CRS. Big Machine Records’ Scott Borchetta had the most puzzling quote, choosing a strange, if not unfortunate analogy to compare his label’s music to when explaining why he chooses to delay releasing music from artists like Taylor Swift and Justin Moore on Spotify and other streaming services until months after the release date has passed. Borchetta told The Tennessean:

“I’m not McDonald’s. I’m not 1 billion served. I’m much more in favor of building a Harley-Davidson or a Ferrari and take that 1 or 2 percent of the population who love what we do and super-serve them.”

It seems like that analogy needs to be flip flopped, but big power players like Borchetta, and their ability to control the market with landmark deals with Clear Channel and others entities will certainly be one of the big topics at CRS 2014.

Why Radio Still Matters

Every time Saving Country Music broaches the subject of country radio, the alternatives such as satellite and streaming services are brought up as evidence of why radio doesn’t matter anymore. Though radio may not matter to a specific consumer, when it comes to the research, the experts, and to the culture and listeners in country music specifically, radio is still by far the most dominant format, especially for consumers to discover new music.

“Time and time again when studies are done, broadcast radio remains the No. 1 source for discovering new music,” Broken Bow Records executive Jon Loba told The Tennessean ahead of CRS. “Radio is still 80-plus percent of your music exposure. One thing I remind staff at least once a month in an artist development meeting when we are focusing on other mediums of exposure that are important — streaming, or press for TV, or whatever else — I try not to let everyone get in the weeds with that. Radio is still the primary form of exposing new music.”

Despite dramatic growth in music streaming across the board, just like with the transition from CD’s to downloads, country music is lagging behind other genres in the changeover, allowing country radio to continue to hold onto its power over consumers. As Nate Rau writing for The Tennessean explains:

“An analysis of music streaming data for 2013 shows that, despite growing noticeably, country still lags behind the other genres. Of the top 10,000 streamed songs last year, 28 percent were rock songs, 28 percent were hip-hop/R&B songs, 19 percent were pop songs and 8 percent were country songs, according to Nielsen data. But on traditional radio, country music outranks all other genres as the most popular format.”

Radio Losing Its Autonomy From Record Labels

Whereas in the past many radio stations were independently or regionally owned and their charge was to serve their communities with music, now that radio consolidation has put the majority of radio stations in the hands of a few select companies, principally Clear Channel and Cumulus, the point of radio in many instances is not to serve communities, but to serve record labels. As Broken Bow’s Jon Loba explains:

“When I got into the business, at my first CRS in 1997, I remember radio stations saying, ‘It is not our job to sell records. Our job is to keep listeners tuned in to our station. That is it. If we happen to sell records as a byproduct, that’s fantastic, but it’s not our job.’ [Now] there’s a much more symbiotic relationship, not just in words, but actually in action. CBS and Clear Channel both are taking the time to say very proactively, ‘We want to help you highlight your priorities, we want to help you sell records. We know healthy record labels are a large part of our business.’

The Country Music Media Arms Race is Heating Up

Similar to how all popular music is coalescing into one or two huge mega-genres or mono-genre, the media that covers and serves country music fans in radio, print, online, television, and social formats is consolidating around two big media players: Clear Channel & Cumulus—the two largest radio station owners in the United States, supported by partnering or gobbling up other important players in the country music media realm.

In December of 2013, word came down that Clear Channel had cut a deal with CMT to create nationally-focused country music programming to be distributed across the 125 country radio stations owned by the company, as well as some digital and television platforms. This move was in response to Cumulus, the 2nd-largest radio station owner in the United States behind Clear Channel, which had created its own national syndicated format earlier in 2013 under the NASH-FM brand, serving 70 separate radio markets.

Then Cumulus matched Clear Channel’s cross-media move by partnering with the long-running magazine Country Weekly to migrate the NASH-FM brand into print and online media. Announced in late January, Country Weekly in the next couple of quarters will become NASH Weekly. Cumulus has also registered, and is expected to make an online presence for the NASH brand a focus. Then yesterday, even more ventures and partnerships were announced from Cumulus, including a television station, live concerts and events, even potentially restaurants and consumer products will be part of the massive NASH brand expansion.

Personalities and cross-platform promotion are what is driving the media arms race. CMT’s Cody Alan who now also appears in Clear Channel’s syndicated radio network can do an interview with a big country star, and use that interview both on television and in radio, transcribe it for print and/or online media, and promote it through both company’s social networks. However there are obvious trappings to having one or two companies control all of country music’s media.

“From the record company standpoint, it is absolutely more efficient and cost-effective with respect to reaching a larger audience in one shot,” says Broken Bow’s Jon Loba. “But it can also be somewhat scary in that there are fewer voices and opinions being heard out there.”

- – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - -

What’s for certain is that in 2014, country music media will go through the biggest paradigm shift in the genre’s history, touching every facet of how consumers engage with country music, and creating two massive companies who will dominate the media landscape, partnering with the country music recording industry and blurring lines between covering music and creating music like never before.


Clear Channel, CMT Deal Means More Homogenization

December 4, 2013 - By Trigger  //  Podcasting/Radio  //  23 Comments

clear-channelClear Channel, the largest radio provider in the US, just struck a massive deal with CMT, a division of Viacom, to create national country music programming to be distributed across 125 country radio stations owned by Clear Channel, as well as some digital and television platforms. The move is meant to match a similar national syndicated format created by the second-biggest radio provider in the US, Cumulus, who launched the NASH-FM national country network on 70 separate radio stations earlier this year.

The historic deal means more programming will be created on a national level, and distributed to local stations. Though Clear Channel says the new deal will be good for local radio stations because it will give them access to national-caliber talent and programming through their syndicated network that local stations would otherwise not have access to, the move continues the trend for radio to lose its local and regional flavor in favor of programming catering to a national audience.

Cumulus insists that stations in its NASH-FM network are able to choose how much or how little of the national programming they wish to run, allowing local program directors an element of control over preserving the local flavor of a station. But there’s no word on whether the Clear Channel network will give its stations similar latitude.

No word yet either if the move will mean the loss of jobs by local DJ’s similar to when Clear Channel slashed local talent in favor of national programming in October of 2011, but CMT personality Cody Alan has been announced as the host for the syndicated radio show “After MidNite” scheduled to start in January.

What the CMT/Clear Channel deal also means is not only a consolidation of programming across multiple radio markets, but also across multiple media platforms. With CMT programming crossing into radio, and vice versa, and digital media formats also getting into the game, the homogenization of country music media can only continue to increase, effecting not just the local programming of radio stations, but also the local artists who rely on radio play to either get their start on a national career, or sustain a local one.


Saving Country Music Radio Episode #28 Released

June 24, 2012 - By Trigger  //  Podcasting/Radio  //  8 Comments

Sometimes you just have to stop pontificating so much about music and just play it. That is what the Saving Country Music Radio podcast is for. Even if you have no time or desire to listen, please pilfer the playlist for ideas for what we’re listening to right now. This episode is co-hosted by Earl Dibbles Jr. (well, sort of), who just released a new single, and prominently features my favorite new album, Eric Strickland’s Honky Tonk Till I Die, as well as songs from albums SCM has reviewed recently, and others we hope to get to soon.

Thanks for listening and remember….

It’s all about the music!

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Study: Listeners Want More Classic Country On Radio

February 23, 2012 - By Trigger  //  Podcasting/Radio  //  24 Comments

This week in Nashville the Country Radio Seminar is happening, a four day event bringing together radio industry folks, along with some artists and musicians. On Wednesday afternoon, an extensive study on the behavior of country’s radio listeners conducted by Edison Research was released to the conference that included some alarming statistics for traditional country radio, including that 1 in 5 country fans don’t listen to radio, and instead liste to iPods, to internet radio, or other alternatives.

One of the causes of this trend according to the president of Edison Research Larry Rosin is that country radio is under-serving it’s classic country fans. 1 in 6 country music fans say that classic country from the 60′s and 70′s is their “favorite” of all the country music types, yet this music is very rarely played on today’s country radio.

“I believe that we as an industry have really made a mistake in our conception of our own stations,” Rosin said according to The Tennessean. “While many people don’t want to listen to classic country music, some still do, and we’ve let them float away…We run the risk that we just are more and more pleasing to fewer and fewer people until all we are is ecstatically pleasing a tiny, unsustainable number of people.”

One of the long suspected causes between the discrepancy of what radio listeners want, and what they get is the massive consolidation happening in radio, specifically with large media corporations like Clear Channel and Cumulus buying up local radio stations, in many instances owning up to five radio stations per market, and trading out local programming for nationally syndicated radio talent. In October 2011, Clear Channel made massive cuts in small, regional radio markets, which potentially effected country music more than others formats because of country’s concentration of rural, small market listeners.

Yet the CEO of Clear Channel Radio Bob Pittman who was a Wednesday keynote speaker at the Country Radio Seminar seemed to paint a very different picture from the Edison Research study, and championed the idea of replacing local DJ talent with national names. “It’s like television.” Pittman said, “If you’ve got Jay Leno, he’s better than the local guy.” He also praised the rock sold strength and reach of radio, even though Clear Channel itself is roughly $20 billion in debt.

Large media companies like Clear Channel seem to be caught in a dilemma. As they deal with dwindling revenues from radio, they attempt to save costs by consolidating programming through cutting local talent and replacing it with National talent already paid for. But as the Edison Research report points out, this trend might be turning off many of country radio’s traditional listeners. It’s a catch 22, where Clear Channel’s solution for dealing with declining revenue might be exacerbating the problem.

The music industry was dealing with massive declining revenue over the last 8 years until in 2011 the industry surprisingly stabilized. The question now is, will the radio industry be able to do what the recording industry did and pull out of their tailspin, or is the solution they’ve constructed to deal with less radio users only aiding their fall?


Saving Country Music Radio on The Real Deal

April 2, 2011 - By Trigger  //  Podcasting/Radio  //  37 Comments

I am excited to announce that Saving Country Music now has a home on the radio every Saturday night! It’s called “Saving Country Music Radio”, and it is making its debut run TONIGHT (4-2-11) at 9 PM Central, 10 Eastern, on The Real Deal, KOOK 93.5 FM 1230 AM, in the heart of the Texas Hill country. But of course, since most of you don’t live in the Texas Hill Country, you can access the live stream of the station right here, or by clicking on the black and gold KOOK icon in the right column of every page on the website.

Saving Country Music Radio will be an audio version of this website, promoting and talking about the great independent, up-and-coming, and underground bands and artists, while making sure the legacy of country music is preserved as well. Playlists for each show will be archived at, with links to all the bands played and discussed, and the shows will be archived there in their entirety as well, probably about a week after their initial airing.

I want to give a huge thanks to “Big G” Gordon Ames, the Big Cheese of The Real Deal for giving me this opportunity to expose a brand new audience to the music we all know and love. He has been a good friend for years, and I am excited to finally be able to work with him directly.

And for fans/listeners of SCM LIVE, don’t worry, nothing is going to change there. We will still be doing our weekly podcasts and live broadcasts. The idea with SCM Radio is to reach even more people with this music. Eventually we may open the SCM LIVE chat room during the show, but right now we are working on a new chat room, so we will probably skip that, at least for the first few weeks (let me know below in the comments if anyone has a desire for a live chat with this). Incidentally the chat room WILL be open this Sunday (4-3) for The ACM Awards, so people can stop by a hoot on the pop country frivolity!

I am very excited about this, so please give a listen to The Real Deal Saturday night if you have a chance, and let me know what you think. And ANYTIME you have a hankering for listening to the radio, you should listen to The Real Deal!


Tim Pop Live Comes to SCM Live!

March 15, 2011 - By Trigger  //  Podcasting/Radio  //  28 Comments

I am very excited to announce that the podcast legend by the name of Tim Pop is moving his “Rebel Rouser” country music podcast to SCM LIVE!

Rebel Rouser is an hour-long weekly podcast that mixes old-school, classic country music with the new school underground stuff. It may be new to you and SCM LIVE, but Tim Pop is already done over 60 episodes of Rebel Rouser over on the Real Punk Radio network. The show will air Thursday nights at 9 PM Eastern, 8 Central, and will be preceded by Reverend Nix’s “Mojo Medicine Show”, which has been moved from Fridays to Thursdays, starting at 8 Eastern, 7 Central.

Reverend Nix already sets the table on Wednesdays for the flagship of SCM LIVE, Outlaw Radio Chicago, so now there will be two nights a week where you can listen to great music, and if want, hang out in the chat room and enjoy the camaraderie that has made Saving Country Music one of the strongest online communities country music can boast.

I have known Tim Pop, and have been listening to his podcasts for over three years. I first heard about his main podcast “Tim Pop Live” from Rachel Brooke through MySpace. Tim Pop is based in Detroit, and is good friends with Rachel & Junk (aka Brooks Robbins) (who have a new side project called “Modern Mal”)  The first time I listened to Tim Pop Live was less than two weeks after I had started Free Hank III, the organization that eventually morphed into Saving Country Music, and Tim Pop, who didn’t know me from Adam, was talking about it on his podcast. That is when I knew what the power of community and collaboration could do.

Y’all please stop by on Thursday’s if you can, listen a little, hang out in the chat room for a bit. And if Thursday’s are bad for you, or you want to check out what kind of chops Tim Pop has, you can check out previous episodes of Rebel Rouser or Tim Pop Live at

And don’t forget that THIS SATURDAY Lowebow Fest from Florida will be broadcast on SCM LIVE as well!

Tim Pop is also a lead guitar player. Here he is shredding for the band Switchblade Justice!


Interview – Rachel Brooke about “Down In The Barnyard”

February 27, 2011 - By Trigger  //  Podcasting/Radio  //  14 Comments

Rachel Brooke’s new album Down In The Barnyard has been creating a lot of buzz lately, and on Wednesday she talked with Jashie P of Outlaw Radio Chicago about the album, her upcoming tour with Those Poor Bastards, a proposed 7-inch release on Farmageddon Records, and how Shooter Jennings is helping her with his “XXX” movement.

You can hear the interview in its entirety on Outlaw Radio Episode 134, but for those that would rather read, you can find the meat of the interview transcribed below.

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Jashie P: You released this all by yourself, there’s no label behind you on this one, is there?

Rachel Brooke: No. Farmageddon Records is picking it up. I started working on it kind of right as Farmageddon was coming together. So it’s mostly just a self-release, but Farmageddon is helping me with it, pushing it a little bit, so.

Jashie P: Compare it to your last couple of CD’s, the demos and what not. How did you decide what instruments were going to be on each song?

Rachel Brooke: I’ve always been wanting to be just a vocal and guitar, that’s what I love. But I wanted to start setting it up a little bit. I just mess around with each song for a while to see what I like. Some of them just kind of happened like “Mean Kind Of Blues”. I was like, “I want to write something that’s a little more upbeat, put a guitar on it” and that one came out pretty quick. Same with “Don’t Forget Me When I Die”. I wanted a lot of bluegrass sound on it.

Jashie P: How was the record recorded? Was it self-produced, or did you have producers with you?

Rachel Brooke: I recorded the whole thing at home except for the drums, and my dad’s banjo part. We slowly worked on it, waited until I felt good and was in a good mood, and when the cars weren’t going by outside too much, because one thing that would really upset me is when I’d record and there’s some truck going by. I worked on it slowly at home, then I took it up to my brother’s studio in Traverse City, and he helped me mix it, and fixed a lot of the recording mistakes I made because I’m still learning how to record. He mixed it with me and we mastered it. It took a long time.

Jashie P: It’s on iTunes and Amazon, but really if people got it on there, they’re missing out on the cover art. Why don’t you explain the concept of the cover?

Rachel Brooke: I wanted to do something that represents the music. I had my friend Jessica (Varda), and we went out around where I live. We took a picture in front of this barn, like just off the side of the road because we were going to go ask the people if we could take pictures but they weren’t there or something. I don’t know if they’ll ever see it, they may recognize it, I hope not (laughing). And then I had Katie (Umhoefer), she does all Those Poor Bastards artwork. She worked with me and what I was going for. She did all the design artwork, and she did a great job. I’m so happy with it… It’s inspired by the old-time Carter Family kind of stuff. If you ever look up any of their old photographs, it’s all real simple. And it says a lot. It has a lot of emotion in it, and that’s what I wanted.

Jashie P: Your lyrics are really dark, and a lot of these songs tell stories. “The Legend of Morrow Road” is a 7-minute song that’s a really in-depth story. How do these lyrics come to you?

Rachel Brooke: That song is actually a Michigan legend. It’s not the same. What it is, is I didn’t want to write a ghost story, but I wanted to write a legend kind of thing. So I made up the story behind it. If you look it up there’s actually a place close to where I live called Morrow Road, and it’s just about a ghost that walks around there at night, some girl. To me it was kind of cool, but it needed a story behind it. So I just let it come to me, just let my imagination go and it kind of came together…The Carter Family inspired me a lot for this album because I love their simplicity, and the beauty of it. The way their songs are is just so simple, but so meaningful, and that’s what I wanted to do. Say a lot with just being really simple.

Jashie P: There’s a lot of other female artists popping up, you’ve got Six Gun (Britt), Little Lisa (Dixie), Nellie Wilson. What do you think about the whole resurgence of female artists coming along in this little scene?

Rachel Brooke: I think it’s cool, because it seems like there’s a lot of men, they’re really good. But I think it’s not the same without females. They have a different point of view. Even if it’s about the same situation, a girl’s point of view is completely different. I think females naturally are more emotional and see a little bit deeper into situations, and it’s cool.

Jashie P: You’ve got a big tour coming up with Lonesome Wyatt and Those Poor Bastards. How did all that come about?

Rachel Brooke: Those Poor Bastards were putting a tour together and I was asked if I wanted to come along and I said “yeah”. I know Wyatt pretty well and I think it’s gonna be fun. Right now we’re still making all the dates confirmed. Just keep looking on the website for the dates, because they’re gonna keep coming.

Jashie P: Are you going to do anything from A Bitter Harvest (album with Rachel and Lonesome Wyatt)?

Rachel Brooke: We talked about it, and I’m sure we’ll do a couple.

Jashie P: Is it just going to be you and a guitar again? Or you got a band coming with or anything?

Rachel Brooke: Not this time, I’m just gonna be by myself with a guitar. But I think what I want to do soon is get a band. I think that’s my next step. That’s the plan anyway. I have some people in mind that I really want to work with and I’ve known them for years and grown up with them and I think it would be a perfect fit, it’s just convincing them to do it. And I know they want to, but it’s really got to happen. I’m really trying to push them into doing it.

Jashie P: How many pieces are you looking at?

Rachel Brooke: It’s just gonna be a three piece. It would be me on guitar, another guitarist, and drums. When that comes along, I want to do always an acoustic set, and them bring them up and finish up, you know, blow people away because I really think it’s gonna be that good.

Jashie P: Getting back to A Bitter Harvest, when I talked to Lonesome Wyatt he said there’s a second release being talked about at least. Can you elaborate on that at all?

Rachel Brooke: Yep. We’re still right now working on it, writing some new stuff. I’m waiting for the best ones. It’s gonna happen, but right now we’re just in the beginning of writing… I also want to put out a 7-inch, probably this year with Farmageddon. Me and Darren have been talking about it and I really want to do it because like I said I really want to start introducing an electric show. So what I want to do is a side A, sort of a lo-fi of just me and my guitar like I love, and on side B kind of a high-fi really rocking kind of stuff. Kind of like mean kind of blues, more electric slide kind of stuff.

Jashie P: You were on the front page of and Shooter (Jennings) told me he’s been in touch with you. What do you think about what he’s trying to do with the whole XXX thing?

Rachel Brooke: To be honest, I think it’s really cool. I know there’s been some people who don’t think it’s cool, but I don’t see why. I really feel that he loves the bands that are coming out, and what he’s doing is great. I don’t really see the big deal people are making about it. To me it’s like cool, why can’t he try to get something going? I don’t look at it as a side, I look at it as another step. I noticed some negativity, and I don’t know, I don’t look at it like that. For me, I do my music because I want to. I don’t look at it from any other way except for what I want to do, and I think it’s cool that he’s embracing a lot of these bands. I don’t think it’s that big of a deal. I think it’s a great thing.


Wayne Hancock on SCM LIVE / Ruby Jane on ACL

February 19, 2011 - By Trigger  //  Podcasting/Radio  //  20 Comments

TONIGHT, Saturday (2-19) on Austin City Limits, PBS will be re-running the episode from 2009 of “Willie & The Wheel”, the mashup of Willie Nelson, and the legendary Western Swing band Asleep At The Wheel. At that time, my tip top, rising artist to watch right now Ruby Jane, was a member of “Willie & The Wheel” and performs and is showcased throughout the episode. Only 14-years-old at the time, she not only holds her own on a stage filled with legends like Willie Nelson, Ray Benson, Mickey Raphael, at times she steals the show! You can only imagine where her talent is now, two years later!

You don’t want to miss this episode, if not for Ruby Jane, than for Willie and Ray Benson, but if you do, you can watch the archive of the entire episode.

And then THIS SUNDAY, 2-20-2011, none other than Wayne “The Train” Hancock will be on Saving Country Music’s live streaming channel, aka SCM LIVE, for a streaming video concert, with his full touring band at 6 PM Central! That’s right folks!

This is a special edition of Jashie P’s Outlaw Radio, and it will be coming LIVE from Chicago. Hancock is in the midst of an upper Midwest swing (check dates below) and is stopping by for a performance and interview.

So after your done watching Dale Earnhart Jr. get his ass kicked at the Daytona 500, get a big bowl of popcorn, the refreshment of your choice, duct tape the kids to the bed post and get your ass over here for a FREE Wayne Hancock concert from Jashie P’s living room to yours!


Wayne Hancock tour dates:

Midway Tavern
Mishawaka IN
The Brass Rail
Ft. Wayne IN
Grand Rapids MI
Berwyn IL
Oneida Bingo Casino
Green Bay WI
Oneida Bingo Casino
Green Bay WI
High Noon Saloon
Madison WI
Beachland Ballroom
Cleveland OH
Circleville OH
Nashville TN

Willie Nelson on Music Row’s Music: “I Don’t Listen To It.”

November 4, 2010 - By Trigger  //  Podcasting/Radio  //  31 Comments

On Monday (11-1-10) Jashie P. of Outlaw Radio Chicago met up with the one and only Willie Nelson for a brief but productive interview on Willie’s bus before his performance at the Rialto Square Theatre in Joliet, IL.

Willie talked about how the title for his new album Country Music was a tip of the hat to what he always though country music sounded like, and how he never listens to Sugarland, or most of the other stuff coming out of Music Row.

Outlaw Radio: Why did you name your new album Country Music?

Willie: In my opinion, that is the sound I always thought country music sounded like. And of course it’s changed through the years, but the original sound of country music for me was that sound.

Outlaw Radio: What do you think right now of the current state of country music out of Nashville, out of Music Row, acts like Sugarland?

Willie: Honestly I don’t listen to it so I don’t know (laughing). I just don’t know.

Outlaw Radio: How do you feel being the longest-running country music star going right now? How does that feel to you, and how long are going to keep going?

Willie: Well I don’t know it’s a day to day deal (laughing). As long as people show up and as long as we can show up I hope to do it a long time.

Outlaw Radio: What do you think of this new breed of the underground country scene going . Like I know Hank III pretty well, do you talk to them at all?

Willie: Well I have talked to him and you’re right, he’s the real thing and his dad would be proud, and he’s carrying on the tradition as the Williams family has done forever. And of course in my opinion there was no better writer or singer than Hank.

Interestingly Willie played 5 Hank Williams songs that night, including four in a row, and ending with Hank’s “I Saw The Light.”

Willie also talked about working with Dave Matthews, and his daughter’s band, the flittering, funny and foul-mouthed Folk Uke. You can hear the entirety of the audio from the interview on Outlaw Radio Episode 108, available for listening or download.

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